The Horror! A Buenos Aires journalist describes Bergoglio
OK, and yeah, I get it that Rorate Caeli is "just reporting" and "providing information." Still, couldn't this piece of absolute, total negativity wait at least 24 hours?
For example (just one of many), half of all the Catholics on the planet probably don't even know what a Jesuit is. Could we just allow a basic grasp of the facts and enjoy the new Pope in a mode of happiness and hope before we shit all over everything?
When people want to know why I tend to be really, really negative about Traditionalists, here is a prime example of why. Publishing this crap just to stir the pot.
And it's not just Rorate Caeli. Nope. Mark Shea can attest to the fact that the TRADS were all set and ready to crap on whoever was elected if it wasn't who they wanted.
True confessions: I went over to the Fisheaters forum myself to see what they were saying. A lot of it was good, hopeful, and positive. But a lot of it wasn't. It was ALL about ONE THING and ONE THING ONLY: Our precious Latin mass. Will Pope Francis continue to allow it? (Answer: No one knows.) Is he supportive of the Latin Mass? (Answer: All signs point to "no," given that the Buenos Aires diocese doesn't really offer any and Cardinal Bergoglio is supposedly on record as being "anti.") And then even worse comments and speculation - more prophecies, more Fatima controversies, and an immediate witch hunt to find any crack or hole in Bergoglio's record - thus proving that modernist Rome is leading us all down the primrose path.
Oh, and numerous cries of: "Thank God he didn't take the name of John Paul III." That and criticism because the new Pope Francis asked people to pray for him! Horror of horrors! How weak of him! How un-papal! He's supposed to be praying for US!
Alright, I know that my publishing this is also stirring the pot. It's somewhat negative. But if this doesn't say it all, then what else will? This is a joyous event for the Catholic Church, and yet in their public persona these Traditionalists are largely incapable of grasping anything joyous. Will they also criticize the resurrection of Christ? I ask, since there's not much left joyous for them to grasp.
Oh, and check out the SSPX statement on this. Make sure to quote Pope Pius X no matter what, since he's, like, "the" authority by which to model everything.
By the way, I got teary-eyed over the coverage of the new Pope. So there.
And also, I know I have to get off the TRAD subject. I know it's a dead-end topic for me because of the exact content of this post. Nothing will make them happy, and thus, it's pretty pointless to continue to beat that drum.
As one priest said on my Facebook page tonight, "They won't even be happy in heaven."
They remind me of the Dwarfs in the Stable in C. S. Lewis' The Last Battle: so afraid of being taken in that they can't be taken out.
ReplyDeleteI am so sorry that people are being negative about our Pope Francis. I was SO touched (and also teary eyed) at his humility in asking for our prayers in silence. What is wrong with people? Shame on them! He told the world heis going to visit Mary tomorrow in her church in Rome, what's not to like? He needs our prayers, not criticisms.
ReplyDeleteZBarZona
One more thing. What I know of Trads is what I read on your blog, and others. And a few run ins in the homeschool community. But it's just not worth it to spend any time on them. They will never be happy. It's too bad, because they could have made a choice to support both vocally and prayerfully a good and holy man. He chose St. Francis as his name. That is huge! They have taken a moment of joy and turned it into gnashing of their own teeth, and they're 'happy' with that. How sad.
ReplyDeleteZBarZona
I should probably go back and find the quote but I'm too lazy...I think it was in the comments somewhere on Rorate...Regardless, lots of consoling themselves that he is old and only has one lung. Nice.
ReplyDeleteCatlady
From Facebook: "You are so spot-on. Preach it."
ReplyDeleteRod Dreher talks about the same subject as I do. The commbox is EXCELLENT, don't miss it - traditionalists who are rational and logical saying exactly what I have.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/francis-does-not-please-catholic-traditionalists/
I understand your frustration. As a trad myself, I don't like the tone on my side. I'm guilty of it as well. However, there is a lot of frustration and fear that all the gains under Benedict XVI will be undone. Bergoglio has truly been very poor when it comes to the Sacred Liturgy.
ReplyDelete-Justin
Justin, you can not possibly know already that Bergoglio has been poor when it comes to Sacred Liturgy. You have no proof, no evidence other than poorly tied together facts jumbled together by Trads running around like chickens with their heads cut off.
DeleteBy the way, define "sacred liturgy." Does that or does it not include the NO? If not, don't bother coming back to answer.
I just came across this blog post looking up Rorate Caeli, who I had only recently heard of, and can not believe what a vicious nasty piece you have posted. Nothing I read at Rorate Caelie comes close to this negative unhinged rant of foul mouthed bile. Bullies like you are why I left the church.
DeleteHaving a hard time believing that "bullies" like me are the reason you left the church, but you're interested in the liturgical snobbery of a blog like Rorate Caeli? That blog appeals to people who are very, very IN the church and totally obedient to it. Seems a bit contradictory, but hey, whatever floats your boat.
DeleteAs a young Catholic who exclusively attends the extraordinary form, I will admit that when they announced who was going to be Pope, the first thing that went through my head was, "I hope he will be a friend of the Latin mass." I sincerely hope that the new Pope will continue the restoration of beauty to the Catholic liturgy that Pope Benedict XVI undertook, and I hope that he will be the leader that the Church needs right now. While I can attest that there are many trads that will never be happy simply because there is no way to magically transport them all back to 1962 (believe me, I wish there was too). My parish (part of the Institute of Christ the King) used to have a lot of cranky people like that until the SSPX came to town and then they moved over to that parish. I found the Rorate Coeli article to be unfounded and vague, providing few concrete examples and I find it disappointing that they would be so quick to judge his pontificate before it has even started. Not all traditional Catholics are like this--we just don't have mouths that are that big :)
ReplyDeleteLike most trads, I pray that the new Holy Father will be open to the graces of the office of Pope and steer the Church toward holiness, reverence, beauty and truth.
What a day! I love the name he chose, I love that he asked for prayers and led us in prayer, I think I fell in love with him when he just stood there on the balcony just taking it all in and then gave a little wave.
ReplyDeleteApparently there are 7 Latin Mass locations in Argentina. Honestly, considering what a large part of their population has to deal with who cares? This North American obsession with the TLM is a first world problem right up there with lukewarm lattes and the latest People magazine arriving a week late. Sheesh!
You are spot on by observation that the TLM is a particular North American obsession. My friend is Korean and she just can't relate to the nostalgia. Her point is that many Koreans would not be Catholic today if the Mass in S.Korea wasn't in the vernacular.
DeleteAgreed here too. Like whoever made the comment a month or so ago about suburban moms being so bored and privilaged that they'd actually use a 3rd world method of diapering, cloth diapers, when we've progressed so far past that point.
DeleteHey, I've said it over and over: the TLM has a right to exist and I don't want it to go away. But it's largely an aesthetic choice thing. And those who say it's superior to the NO-in my opinion-move into the territory of saying the eucharist at the NO is invalid, and if you believe that, then you're wading into very murky waters.
It reminds me of the comboxes in so much of the Catholic blogosphere the minute Obama was elected, the first time around.
ReplyDeleteThese people aren't into letting anybody have a little moment of joy, because when you think you know the mind of God, you also tend to think it is your responsibility to tell everybody else exactly what the mind of God is and just what doom and gloom are going to come down the pike given that all of us sinners apparently ignored it.
I grew up in a family in which several members ended up going SSPX. I loved them because they were my family, but my gosh, talk about miserable people! Their misery, along with that of so many other "religious" people I know, convinced me that one of the worst insults you can possible pay to our Creator is to choose to ignore the beauty of the world around us and the goodness in so many people around us (yes, even the ones who--gasp!--live a life not at all in keeping with the way we think they should be) and instead be a spiritual sourpuss intent on bringing down everybody else around you.
It's not exactly a great way to convert people to Catholicism. But I have also become convinced that for many of these sourpusses, religion isn't about actually inspiring people to know and love our Lord; it's about feeling superior to those around them and using religion as a weapon to beat everybody with.
Ignore the RC-type websites and keep feeling your moment of joy. They can only take it from you if you let them, you know.
"Apparently there are 7 Latin Mass locations in Argentina. Honestly, considering what a large part of their population has to deal with who cares? This North American obsession with the TLM is a first world problem right up there with lukewarm lattes and the latest People magazine arriving a week late. Sheesh!"
ReplyDeleteThe poor deserve to have beautiful and reverent Liturgy as much as the rich do. As a parishioner at an Institute of Christ the King church, we have had some priests who have served as missionaries in the Institute's church in Gabon where they devote themselves to evangelization and Catholic education. There is a lot of material poverty there, but the people are SPIRITUALLY wealthy.
The Liturgy is a great treasure for the Catholic faithful. Many traditional Catholics feel wounded by seeing countless abuses of the liturgy and so many priests making the Mass into a spectacle. I think a lot of problems would be solved if the priests faced East and this CAN and should happen in the Novus Ordo. If more priests thought of themselves as "servants of the Liturgy" rather than innovators of the Liturgy, you wouldn't see so many Catholics fleeing NO parishes in favor of the Latin Mass. Is it possible to have beauty and reverence in the Novus Ordo? yes. Is it common? No.
Lex orandi, lex credenti. "How we pray, is how we believe." You cannot solve the crisis of faith without reforming the Liturgy.
Fleeing? Vancouver, BC -- a large Canadian city -- offers one parish with the TLM. It's not even full on Sunday and it's a small(ish) church. Nobody is 'fleeing' the NO.
DeleteAngela M.
Agreed, no one is fleeing the TLM. It's a story the trads like to tell themselves since there are now active ICK parishes and the like. Well, at least where I am, two such parishes amidst hundreds of others speaks volumes.
DeleteAnyway, I still maintain that even if a whole bunch of Catholics bailed to the Latin mass for reasons of beauty, etc, they'd end up eventually leaving when the rigidity and conspiracy theories became apparent. Believe me, I talk to people around here and keep my ears pricked up......those TLM parishes are far from perfect. Just as the NO parishes are far from perfect. We weren't called to live in perfect bubbles.
I meant to say here - no one if fleeing the Novus Ordo. Sorry for the OOPS.
DeleteHi Claire, any remaining sympathy I had for Trads and how 'wounded' they are has been eliminated since reading comboxes on Father Z and a few others. The Holy Father has been Pope for less than 24 hours, and the nastiness from Trads is disconcerting. Some people wrote ugly things on Father Z's website last night, and he has a fine post up right now entitled don't slip on the banana peel. AND STILL, w/in the last 5 minutes, a commenter posted he was disturbed Pope Francis didn't wear an amice. Another told Father Z to take off his rose colored glasses, and wondered how long it would be before Pope Francis visited a synagogue. I have a feeling I'm not the only regular Catholic disgusted and dismayed at what has happened since yesterday. I don't care how many posters say 'It's not all Trads, it's just a few bad apples'...great damage has been done and it was done byTrads themselves. Not because they were persecuted by Vatican 2. I am appalled and sickened. But go ahead, people, complain that he's too humble and he he didn't wear an amice. #winning
ReplyDeleteZBarZona
Good point. I read Father Z's comboxes yesterday and I was sickened. However, I was very pleased to see that he cleaned them up and deleted the garbage and then wrote that post today.
DeleteCatlady
I didn't see Father z, but this makes me want to go over there now.
DeleteI thought what he said was fair, and long overdue.
DeleteWait 24 hours? No, the news cycle doesn't wait, but that is where a man's ability to pick and choose what he reads comes in.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
DeleteIn this case, the vitriol from the TRADS was the subject du jour all over the Catholic blogosphere the day I wrote this blog post. The fact that I went over the Fisheaters was just me confirming what was all over the place anyway. Rorate Caeli was decried by just about every mainstream Catholic blogger out there - it was kind of hard to pick and choose unless I read only uber-traditional blogs.
Reminds me of C S Lewis' Screwtape letters where he describes a woman who loudly protests her minimal need for care and then complains that she does not receive it according to her specificiations, or of the Great Divorce, wherein the ghosts are so anxious to hold on to their own perceptions of things, they cannot become real.
ReplyDeleteClaire,
ReplyDeleteI observe that your comments read like the published laundry list of reasons why the TLM is superior to the NO. Very cliche and all points already known. On this blog, and more especially my old one, we've all been through this many times. You're going to have to get deeper and more creative here than saying, "oh if we all just had mass ad orientum everything would be different." B-ORING.
Changing directions, and "how we pray is how we believe", etc., is all fine and well, unless you consider that most people don't pray at all and most of us are harboring great sin and pride in our hearts. How the Latin language can change any of that, let me know. Redecorating your house doesn't solve the problems that were already there. Changes of scenery are good, but people still have to go home to their own mess.
I just can't see where a mandatory return to the TLM fits in with the continuing evangelization of the 21st century Church. I heard George Weigel on the Dennis Prager show and he said that (according to the former Cardinal Bergoglio when he interviewed him last year for his book "The New Evangelization") the biggest draw of Catholics in South America is to Evangelical Protestant denominations. Now, with the singing and dancing and speaking in tongues capturing more and more Catholic hearts, how can you say that the Church needs to go back to the clericalism of the past? I'm not saying that we should go back to the loosey goosey 70s Church, but I do think that the knee jerk reaction that it's all because of the N.O. that Catholics are leaving the faith is consistently debunked by reality.
ReplyDeleteClassic title! LOL!
ReplyDeleteI certainly agree.
Saw the link in my e-mail and had to come over and read it for the title alone.
ReplyDeleteI simply avoid the rad trad blogs when I can (unless you, another blogger, or Dave point something out to me specifically).
Liturgically, Pope Francis is a Jesuit. Theologically, he seems pretty darned orthodox and I'm satisfied with that. But I don't get where the irrational "He's gonna ban the Latin mass!" nonsense comes from. I recall going to a Latin Mass -- Midnight on Christmas Eve, I believe, back in 2003. So it's not "banned" and it's never going to be.
Also, the liberals are displeased with this selection because Pope Francis -- gasp! -- believes Catholic teaching on the "hot button" issues: gay marriage, abortion, etc. It's almost laughable because it's so easy to predict exactly what the reactions will be.
So I'm satisfied and I feel like this is the right choice for the right time...
The SSPX statement was quite conciliatory, actually, given what some (a minority, one hopes) of their parishioners probably think.
ReplyDeleteBut that said, I see nothing wrong with a quote from St. Pius X, one of our finest and holiest popes. That's the least of their problems.
I've been a NA Catholic since birth, and I have never seen the Latin mass. To me, it is a historical artifact. I'm not anti Latin mass. I just don't think it deserves a super-special place. Even in my VERY conservative family, no one ever complained about losing the Latin mass.
ReplyDeleteI am very much a child of Vatican II, and the older that I get, the more that I see that Vantican II had it entirely right. Understanding the words is more important than tradition.
Wow, that's classy language from a Catholic woman. Shining example for all!
ReplyDeleteNot sorry in the least for using language like this after reading the hundreds of pieces of shit left by traditionalists for our new Holy Father. All in the true spirit of truley true!
DeleteI am a "TRAD" as you label it; however, I just use Catholic. I am very excited about our new Pope. I think he is fully aware of the concerns plaguing both liturgically conservative and liberal groups.
ReplyDeleteI do think that if your heart is closed to understanding why the beauty of a Latin mass is spiritually needed, then you are not going to period.
The Church has a rule book or a "manner book" as I was raised to say; those manners should be used out of respect and love for Christ. Since the Catholic Church is the universal church, those manners keep us unified culturally to our mother church.
Also, my parents are from Roumania and they both remember the Latin mass being incredibly important even now. As I have seen in my work with Nigerians, Kenyans, and others. So no it is not a North American obsession solely.
Reading through these comments it surprises how little people realize that Vatican II has yet been truly promulgated. Liturgical abuse is never okay and laxity creates abuse. Also I think people need expectations and the current ones are barely there. There are rights and wrongs; as Catholics, we should be creating domestic churches finding our extraordinary grace in ordinary life.
ReplyDeleteI will leave this blog now wishing you the peace of the Holy Spirit; I am sorry to say that I will not be returning. I will keep you on my prayer list.
I cringe at catholic goodie-goodies saying they'll pray for me, which is always a sign of judgemental dismissiveness. Thanks, but no thanks.
DeleteI would point out that your "renaissance personality" - as you self describe in your profile is just another piece of evidence in my theory that attraction to the Latin mass is largely about personal style and aesthetics.
It is not fair for me to say this to someobe who just dropped in here out of the sky, but I will: the long history I have as a blogger-over 4.5 years now-overly attests to the fact that I strongly desire a more holy, more reverant mass. However, a wholesale return to 1962 is not the answer, nor is it an answer to the true spirit of Vatican II. It is simple minded and judgemental to accuse those who don't agree with traditionalists of not understanding Vatican II. I despise such an easy approach to discussion.
Thanks for playing, but try again.
I have always preferred the TLM, it is too bad the traditionalists and sites like Rorate Caeli have so badly damaged its wider acceptance with their paranoia and hostility to the Church.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, some will be surprised by this, but I completely agree with you. I am all for wider acceptance for the TLM - honest! My issue has never been with the Latin mass, per se, but with the crowd that attends and the attitudes and behaviors that attend. It is a shame, because while I don't prefer the Latin mass, I certainly can attest to its beauty, as well as the awesome prayers it contains that should have never been left behind. I would just rather all those lovely prayers in English.
DeleteDoes anyone know who runs the Rorate Caeli blog? I see such nicknames as "New Catholic" and "Jordanes". Who are they? Anyone know?
ReplyDeleteEd, who knows? I've never been a Rorate Caeli reader and can count on one hand the number of times I've been over there. Too high brow for me. I do recall years ago seeing the "Jordanes" handle in commboxes of numerous blogs, usually very conservative Catholic blogs.
DeleteAs far as "New Catholic," yeah, I saw that too. I thought that was either ironic, stupid, or purposely misleading.
This comment showed up in my email, but somehow never made it to the commbox, which is unusual. It's from "Anonymous":
ReplyDelete"I am a traditionalist and I believe that our apostolate is one of the most vital and vibrant in the Church today. We have an important contribution to make to the renewal of the Church, for many, many reasons. I do not agree with Rorate Caeli and they do not speak for me or my family. They are SSPX sympathizers and supporters - and they have aided and abetted this terrible schism from the very beginning. From what I understand, there are a number of priests involved in this blog, both SSPX and non SSPX priests. Woe to them! Thank you for taking them over at Rorate Caeli to task. Somebody needs to!"
In response to Anonymous, I ask this: If it's true that lots of the vitriol is spewing from SSPX folks/priests, why won't the identify themselves as SSPX? I ask, because I've heard this time and time again - that the meanies I refer to on the internet are really SSPX or sedes or just TLM whack-jobs. I can see someone not wanting to admit they are sede, and a whack-job usually doesn't know they are a whack-job, but....if we are to take the SSPX seriously (as they want), why not just come out and say it? You see where I'm going with this.
DeleteFYI:
ReplyDeleteGoogle MISA DE NINOS 2011.
'nuff said
Nuff Said, i'll be addressing your comment with a separate blog post.
DeleteTo all: New blog post, "In Defense of Clown Masses (But Not Really)"
ReplyDeletehttp://suchaprettybubble.blogspot.com/2013/03/in-defense-of-clown-mass-but-not-really.html